Bird Flu Hoax
Moderator: Priests of Syrinx
Nunavuter thank you for you insight.
Perhaps a bit off topic but I won't applogize for the rant.
I totally agree that earth is a skein of interwoven connections. I did some calculations concerning oil a few years back before I came across Hubert's curve and landed right smack in the middle. (2012) I theorize that we already passed peak oil production. At any rate we are so addicted to oil we will watch our civilization collapse rather than change our behavior. Scientists have a greater understanding of the sun than the inner workings of our planet. Who is to say what roll oil has in earths overall workings? Maybe we are becoming more brittle perhaps in some instances the voids are being filled with magma or collapsing creating earthquake's. I know in some instances the voids are filled with sea water and that there is vast oil reserves in shale etc. It is also a good probability that if it was not for vapor trails or smog, the earth would be quite a bit hotter. A double edge sword so to speak. I'm an emotional wreck at times concerning our environment with key species declining and disappearing creating a domino effect. My grandfather was a fisher man and had a bait shop for seventy years and it bothers me that we are raping the worlds oceans. I may have some quirky theory's but appreciate learning and feed back thank
you all.
I'm off on vacation all of next week so you all have a good one.
Perhaps a bit off topic but I won't applogize for the rant.
I totally agree that earth is a skein of interwoven connections. I did some calculations concerning oil a few years back before I came across Hubert's curve and landed right smack in the middle. (2012) I theorize that we already passed peak oil production. At any rate we are so addicted to oil we will watch our civilization collapse rather than change our behavior. Scientists have a greater understanding of the sun than the inner workings of our planet. Who is to say what roll oil has in earths overall workings? Maybe we are becoming more brittle perhaps in some instances the voids are being filled with magma or collapsing creating earthquake's. I know in some instances the voids are filled with sea water and that there is vast oil reserves in shale etc. It is also a good probability that if it was not for vapor trails or smog, the earth would be quite a bit hotter. A double edge sword so to speak. I'm an emotional wreck at times concerning our environment with key species declining and disappearing creating a domino effect. My grandfather was a fisher man and had a bait shop for seventy years and it bothers me that we are raping the worlds oceans. I may have some quirky theory's but appreciate learning and feed back thank
you all.
I'm off on vacation all of next week so you all have a good one.
When evil is allowed to compete with good, evil has an emotional populist appeal that wins out unless good men & women stand as a vanguard against abuse.
Quirky theorys welcome. Without them, much we now know wouldn't have been learnt.Me wrote: I may have some quirky theory's but appreciate learning and feed back thank
you all.
I'm off on vacation all of next week so you all have a good one.
I suppose you will see this after you get back, so...I hope you had a good vacation free from worry.
Onward and Upward!
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Walkinghairball
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It is simply an accident that the first thread I came across on this board happened to be one that contained this subject matter. (I saw Devil's advocate in the index, and I hadn't seen him online in two years.)awip2062 wrote: I don't know if you came here just to have fun with everyone or just to fight with me, but this statement is something I want everyone to read a rebuttal to because it is a blanket statement and untrue as well.
I have phrased my comments in the third person, because I prefer to debate concepts rather than personalities.
My "blanket statement" is an accurate characterization of the apologetics undertaken by "Creation Science." The example of the misdating of the cone of Mount St. Helens is a typical example. The purpose there was to portray geology as incapable of accurately dating rocks in order to lend credence to a Biblical claim. That exercise also involved ommission and distortion, as no geologist would use potassium-argon dating in that instance.
If there is an example of creationist "research" that does not fit this pattern, I would be very interested to see it.
Nowhere Toronto, nowhere to hide
Check out this fucking hysteria...scarey
Bird-flu bill lets medical officers seize land, cars
SATURDAY , 27 MAY 2006
By KAMALA HAYMAN
Nurses will sign death certificates and medical officers will be able to seize any land, buildings or cars needed during a flu pandemic if far-reaching law changes are approved.
International health experts are warning all nations to prepare for a global pandemic as the lethal bird-flu virus spreads across Asia and into Europe, killing millions of birds and more than 100 people.
Seven members of a family have died in Indonesia despite no apparent contact with infected birds, raising the spectre the virus could be spreading between humans, although only through close and prolonged contact.
New Zealand health authorities are planning for a pandemic that could infect 40 per cent of the population and kill 33,000 people, overwhelming health services.
Now an Epidemic Preparedness Bill proposes extending the powers of nurses and medical officers to help authorities cope.
The bill proposes allowing nurses to sign death certificates ? currently only done by doctors ? if no doctor was available for at least 24 hours. However, it forbids the issuing of a death certificate if a doctor or nurse who attended the patient during the illness had refused to issue the death certificate because the cause of death was not clear.
Medical Association chairman Ross Boswell said this proposal was "odd" because nurses were likely to be even busier than doctors during a pandemic. "We need nurses looking after patients, not doing paperwork."
He suggested lawyers be asked to sign the certificates if doctors were not available. "It is a medico-legal (document) and they will not be involved in care of the sick and dying."
Pegasus Health nursing director Shelley Frost said health services would change significantly during a pandemic.
"Doctors and nurses are going to get sick, so we will be struggling with a greatly reduced workforce and will need to take on different roles," she said.
She agreed nurses would be busy, but everyone would have to adapt during the crisis.
The bill proposes significantly extending the powers of medical officers.
They would be able to requisition any land or buildings ? publicly or privately owned ? for a wide range of reasons, including the treatment of patients or storing or disposal of bodies.
Vehicles could also be taken if they were needed to transport patients, doctors or medical equipment, or to carry food, tents or other temporary facilities.
Medical officers would also have the authority to close any premises in their district, except private homes, courts and prisons, and to insist on certain infection-control measures.
Police would have the power to "do anything reasonably necessary, including the use of force", to help medical officers exercise their powers.
Canterbury medical officer of health Mel Brieseman said the law currently listed the types of premises medical officers could close, so was too restrictive, and in some cases, such as billiard halls, out of date.
Currently, the law allowed buildings to be requisitioned during an emergency, but only if they were needed for a hospital. Medical officers could not seize land or vehicles under existing law.
The parliamentary administration select committee is due to report on the bill by July 31.
Bird-flu bill lets medical officers seize land, cars
SATURDAY , 27 MAY 2006
By KAMALA HAYMAN
Nurses will sign death certificates and medical officers will be able to seize any land, buildings or cars needed during a flu pandemic if far-reaching law changes are approved.
International health experts are warning all nations to prepare for a global pandemic as the lethal bird-flu virus spreads across Asia and into Europe, killing millions of birds and more than 100 people.
Seven members of a family have died in Indonesia despite no apparent contact with infected birds, raising the spectre the virus could be spreading between humans, although only through close and prolonged contact.
New Zealand health authorities are planning for a pandemic that could infect 40 per cent of the population and kill 33,000 people, overwhelming health services.
Now an Epidemic Preparedness Bill proposes extending the powers of nurses and medical officers to help authorities cope.
The bill proposes allowing nurses to sign death certificates ? currently only done by doctors ? if no doctor was available for at least 24 hours. However, it forbids the issuing of a death certificate if a doctor or nurse who attended the patient during the illness had refused to issue the death certificate because the cause of death was not clear.
Medical Association chairman Ross Boswell said this proposal was "odd" because nurses were likely to be even busier than doctors during a pandemic. "We need nurses looking after patients, not doing paperwork."
He suggested lawyers be asked to sign the certificates if doctors were not available. "It is a medico-legal (document) and they will not be involved in care of the sick and dying."
Pegasus Health nursing director Shelley Frost said health services would change significantly during a pandemic.
"Doctors and nurses are going to get sick, so we will be struggling with a greatly reduced workforce and will need to take on different roles," she said.
She agreed nurses would be busy, but everyone would have to adapt during the crisis.
The bill proposes significantly extending the powers of medical officers.
They would be able to requisition any land or buildings ? publicly or privately owned ? for a wide range of reasons, including the treatment of patients or storing or disposal of bodies.
Vehicles could also be taken if they were needed to transport patients, doctors or medical equipment, or to carry food, tents or other temporary facilities.
Medical officers would also have the authority to close any premises in their district, except private homes, courts and prisons, and to insist on certain infection-control measures.
Police would have the power to "do anything reasonably necessary, including the use of force", to help medical officers exercise their powers.
Canterbury medical officer of health Mel Brieseman said the law currently listed the types of premises medical officers could close, so was too restrictive, and in some cases, such as billiard halls, out of date.
Currently, the law allowed buildings to be requisitioned during an emergency, but only if they were needed for a hospital. Medical officers could not seize land or vehicles under existing law.
The parliamentary administration select committee is due to report on the bill by July 31.
We're all mad here!
As the dire predictions of a pandemic mount, skeptics warn of the dangers of overreaction
Some don't buy bird flu threat
By TODD ACKERMAN
Copyright 2006 Houston Chronicle
For months, the warnings have been relentless: Bird flu could jump species and kill tens of millions of people, a pandemic to rival the 1918 Spanish flu. Economies would collapse and governments risk catastrophe if they don't put together elaborate contingency plans.
Not everyone is convinced, however. A small group of skeptics says the warnings are just a lot of hype, scare talk that does more harm than good to the public health. Such doomsday predictions go well beyond good science and siphon money and attention from more important threats, they say.
"It's a great story, a disease that can wipe out mankind as we know it," says Dr. Gary Butcher, a University of Florida veterinarian specializing in avian diseases. "Fortunately, the facts are contrary to what's being reported. This disease is going to fizzle out, be forgotten in the near future and be replaced by another 'potential worldwide threat.' "
That view may have received a boost last week when the United Nations' chief pandemic flu coordinator confirmed that the flu virus known as H5N1 largely has been contained in the Asian countries where it first hit.
Public health officials were quick to warn it would be premature to declare victory. Dismissive of those who play down the threat, they argue it would be irresponsible not to plan for a worst-case scenario.
H5N1, they note, shares many genetic features with the Spanish flu, according to a research team that reconstructed the horrific 1918 virus ? except it's even more lethal. The new virus has killed nearly 57 percent of its 217 confirmed human carriers. The 1918 pandemic paralyzed society, but the resulting 20 million to 50 million deaths represented just 2 percent of those infected.
In addition to common flu symptoms like fever and cough, those infected with the H5N1 virus can develop viral pneumonia or other life-threatening complications within days. The virus, to date, is believed only to have been transmitted to humans through direct contact with diseased birds.
Virus transmission
The most recent reported deaths attributed to H5N1 were those of six Indonesians, five of them in an extended family. The deaths, reported last week, initially were investigated as a "cluster" that health experts feared could mean the virus was mutating into a form more easily passed between humans. World Health Organization investigators have all but ruled out human-to-human transmission, saying the virus likely was caught from infected animals.
It's the idea of easy transmission between humans that brings out the apocalyptic visions. One researcher went so far as to suggest half the world's population could die in such a pandemic. U.S. Secretary of Health & Human Services Michael Leavitt advised Americans to stockpile cans of tuna fish and powdered milk in case of an outbreak. And officials have called for more than 100 million doses of a still-to-be-developed vaccine for the virus to be made available to Americans.
Contrarians such as Butcher say it's all a bit much, considering that some experts doubt the current lethal form of the virus will ever jump to humans . They also note that the three pandemics of the last century claimed successively fewer lives. The last, in 1968, killed 34,000 people, fewer than the number who succumb each year to seasonal flu.
Bird flu, they argue, is just the latest in a line of overhyped scares that include anthrax, West Nile virus, smallpox and SARS, which taken together claim a mere fraction of the lives lost every year to, say, pneumonia.
The skeptics warn of the dangers of overreaction, citing 1976's swine flu debacle, when more than 40 million people received a vaccine against a new pig virus that, ultimately, never took hold. The virus killed one person, a military recruit whose speedy death ignited the crash program. But as many as 1,000 people who were inoculated developed a paralyzing nerve condition; 32 died. The public relations nightmare and lawsuits against the government helped drive many drug companies away from making flu vaccines at all.
One reason some remain unconvinced of the new virus's potential transmissibility is because it has infected so few people to date. Since 1998, hundreds of millions of chickens in Asia have been infected with the virus. Millions of people lived with the diseased birds, but, as of last Friday, 217 had become infected. Of those, 123 died.
The high fatality rate also is suspect, according to the naysayers. No one knows how many people in close contact with domesticated birds may have picked up the virus, but never got sick or only showed mild symptoms, and, thus, never reported the disease.
The current flu virus, H5N1, is what is infecting birds. That virus, however, infects humans by lodging deep in the lungs, and, thus, isn't likely to be spread by coughing or sneezing.
The fear among scientists is that the avian flu strain will mix with a human flu, producing a new, easily transmissible virus against which people have no immunities.
"It would be devastating if it gained the ability to spread easily from person to person," said Dr. Wendy Keitel, a molecular virologist at Baylor College of Medicine. "Its fatality rate in humans is unprecedented, as is the extent and severity of the outbreaks in poultry."
Differing views
But Paul Ewald, a professor of evolutionary biology at the University of Louisville, said such pathogens would lose their virulence, a law of natural selection ignored by those who fear the worst-case scenarios.
"Everything we know about evolution says pathogens have to become more mild to keep their host mobile," Ewald said. "If they're so virulent the host can't pass them on, they don't survive."
The exception, he said, occurs in "disease factories" ? environments where people immobilized by illness can easily transmit a virulent pathogen to new hosts ? which is what happened on World War I's Western Front with the Spanish flu. Hospitals, trains and trenches packed with deathly ill and healthy soldiers facilitated the disease's lethal spread.
Public health officials respond that researchers still don't know exactly what made the Spanish flu so deadly, particularly to the young and healthy. They say they can't afford to do little and hope time proves Ewald's theory correct.
Are grants driving hype?
Some critics see a different "agenda" behind the public concern about bird flu ? funding. Butcher says President Bush's $7.1 billion flu pandemic plan means a bonanza of grant money for researchers and the justification of the budgets and existence of agencies such as the U.S. Department of Agriculture and the World Health Organization.
The bait is not taken by many officials most concerned about the bird flu threat. One such, Dr. C.J. Peters, director of biodefense at the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston, calls the more vocal skeptics "well-intentioned folks reacting to media hype."
Some mostly just wish the money wasn't being directed so single-mindedly to the new virus. With nearly 150 different strains of flu viruses with the potential to cause a pandemic, New York University School of Medicine internist Dr. Marc Siegel said he'd like to see more effort aimed at general pandemic preparation, such as developing better methods for making vaccines, and less given to panic-inducing rhetoric.
"I'm concerned that the public discussion about bird flu, the new bug du jour, is so weighted with end-of-the-world terms that it's causing a kind of hysteria," said Siegel, author of Bird Flu: Everything You Need to Know About the Next Pandemic. "The greatest problem isn't influenza ? it's fear of influenza."
Some don't buy bird flu threat
By TODD ACKERMAN
Copyright 2006 Houston Chronicle
For months, the warnings have been relentless: Bird flu could jump species and kill tens of millions of people, a pandemic to rival the 1918 Spanish flu. Economies would collapse and governments risk catastrophe if they don't put together elaborate contingency plans.
Not everyone is convinced, however. A small group of skeptics says the warnings are just a lot of hype, scare talk that does more harm than good to the public health. Such doomsday predictions go well beyond good science and siphon money and attention from more important threats, they say.
"It's a great story, a disease that can wipe out mankind as we know it," says Dr. Gary Butcher, a University of Florida veterinarian specializing in avian diseases. "Fortunately, the facts are contrary to what's being reported. This disease is going to fizzle out, be forgotten in the near future and be replaced by another 'potential worldwide threat.' "
That view may have received a boost last week when the United Nations' chief pandemic flu coordinator confirmed that the flu virus known as H5N1 largely has been contained in the Asian countries where it first hit.
Public health officials were quick to warn it would be premature to declare victory. Dismissive of those who play down the threat, they argue it would be irresponsible not to plan for a worst-case scenario.
H5N1, they note, shares many genetic features with the Spanish flu, according to a research team that reconstructed the horrific 1918 virus ? except it's even more lethal. The new virus has killed nearly 57 percent of its 217 confirmed human carriers. The 1918 pandemic paralyzed society, but the resulting 20 million to 50 million deaths represented just 2 percent of those infected.
In addition to common flu symptoms like fever and cough, those infected with the H5N1 virus can develop viral pneumonia or other life-threatening complications within days. The virus, to date, is believed only to have been transmitted to humans through direct contact with diseased birds.
Virus transmission
The most recent reported deaths attributed to H5N1 were those of six Indonesians, five of them in an extended family. The deaths, reported last week, initially were investigated as a "cluster" that health experts feared could mean the virus was mutating into a form more easily passed between humans. World Health Organization investigators have all but ruled out human-to-human transmission, saying the virus likely was caught from infected animals.
It's the idea of easy transmission between humans that brings out the apocalyptic visions. One researcher went so far as to suggest half the world's population could die in such a pandemic. U.S. Secretary of Health & Human Services Michael Leavitt advised Americans to stockpile cans of tuna fish and powdered milk in case of an outbreak. And officials have called for more than 100 million doses of a still-to-be-developed vaccine for the virus to be made available to Americans.
Contrarians such as Butcher say it's all a bit much, considering that some experts doubt the current lethal form of the virus will ever jump to humans . They also note that the three pandemics of the last century claimed successively fewer lives. The last, in 1968, killed 34,000 people, fewer than the number who succumb each year to seasonal flu.
Bird flu, they argue, is just the latest in a line of overhyped scares that include anthrax, West Nile virus, smallpox and SARS, which taken together claim a mere fraction of the lives lost every year to, say, pneumonia.
The skeptics warn of the dangers of overreaction, citing 1976's swine flu debacle, when more than 40 million people received a vaccine against a new pig virus that, ultimately, never took hold. The virus killed one person, a military recruit whose speedy death ignited the crash program. But as many as 1,000 people who were inoculated developed a paralyzing nerve condition; 32 died. The public relations nightmare and lawsuits against the government helped drive many drug companies away from making flu vaccines at all.
One reason some remain unconvinced of the new virus's potential transmissibility is because it has infected so few people to date. Since 1998, hundreds of millions of chickens in Asia have been infected with the virus. Millions of people lived with the diseased birds, but, as of last Friday, 217 had become infected. Of those, 123 died.
The high fatality rate also is suspect, according to the naysayers. No one knows how many people in close contact with domesticated birds may have picked up the virus, but never got sick or only showed mild symptoms, and, thus, never reported the disease.
The current flu virus, H5N1, is what is infecting birds. That virus, however, infects humans by lodging deep in the lungs, and, thus, isn't likely to be spread by coughing or sneezing.
The fear among scientists is that the avian flu strain will mix with a human flu, producing a new, easily transmissible virus against which people have no immunities.
"It would be devastating if it gained the ability to spread easily from person to person," said Dr. Wendy Keitel, a molecular virologist at Baylor College of Medicine. "Its fatality rate in humans is unprecedented, as is the extent and severity of the outbreaks in poultry."
Differing views
But Paul Ewald, a professor of evolutionary biology at the University of Louisville, said such pathogens would lose their virulence, a law of natural selection ignored by those who fear the worst-case scenarios.
"Everything we know about evolution says pathogens have to become more mild to keep their host mobile," Ewald said. "If they're so virulent the host can't pass them on, they don't survive."
The exception, he said, occurs in "disease factories" ? environments where people immobilized by illness can easily transmit a virulent pathogen to new hosts ? which is what happened on World War I's Western Front with the Spanish flu. Hospitals, trains and trenches packed with deathly ill and healthy soldiers facilitated the disease's lethal spread.
Public health officials respond that researchers still don't know exactly what made the Spanish flu so deadly, particularly to the young and healthy. They say they can't afford to do little and hope time proves Ewald's theory correct.
Are grants driving hype?
Some critics see a different "agenda" behind the public concern about bird flu ? funding. Butcher says President Bush's $7.1 billion flu pandemic plan means a bonanza of grant money for researchers and the justification of the budgets and existence of agencies such as the U.S. Department of Agriculture and the World Health Organization.
The bait is not taken by many officials most concerned about the bird flu threat. One such, Dr. C.J. Peters, director of biodefense at the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston, calls the more vocal skeptics "well-intentioned folks reacting to media hype."
Some mostly just wish the money wasn't being directed so single-mindedly to the new virus. With nearly 150 different strains of flu viruses with the potential to cause a pandemic, New York University School of Medicine internist Dr. Marc Siegel said he'd like to see more effort aimed at general pandemic preparation, such as developing better methods for making vaccines, and less given to panic-inducing rhetoric.
"I'm concerned that the public discussion about bird flu, the new bug du jour, is so weighted with end-of-the-world terms that it's causing a kind of hysteria," said Siegel, author of Bird Flu: Everything You Need to Know About the Next Pandemic. "The greatest problem isn't influenza ? it's fear of influenza."
We're all mad here!