By-Tor.com

Ok, but what about my suggestion to not show up with a complaint without some suggestions of our own? Sound responsible/plausible?

Big Blue Owl wrote:Ok, but what about my suggestion to not show up with a complaint without some suggestions of our own? Sound responsible/plausible?

That's part of the deal, isn't it?

right on.

I think much of what we who are opposed to the events we see playing out in our government would rather see happening has been mentioned already.

Hairy....Are you kidding me?

Saw this on my local news "fifteen minutes of shame" segment yesterday:

You bunch of OUTLAWS...You went NATIONWIDE! LMAO

Spokane Residents Smuggle Suds Over 'Green' Brands

By NICHOLAS K. GERANIOS ? 18 hours ago

SPOKANE, Wash. (AP) ? The quest for squeaky-clean dishes has turned
some law-abiding people in Spokane into dishwater-detergent smugglers!

They are bringing Cascade or Electrasol in from out of state because the
eco-friendly varieties required under Washington state law don't work as
well. Spokane County became the launch pad last July for the nation's
strictest ban on dishwasher detergent made with phosphates, a measure
aimed at reducing water pollution.

The ban will be expanded statewide in July 2010, the same time similar
laws take effect in several other states.

But it's not easy to get sparkling dishes when you go green.

Many people were shocked to find that products like Seventh Generation,
Ecover and Trader Joe's left their dishes encrusted with food, smeared
with grease and too gross to use without rewashing them by hand. The
culprit was hard water, which is mineral-rich and resistant to soap.

As a result, there has been a quiet rush of Spokane-area shoppers
heading east on Interstate 90 into Idaho in search of old-school suds.

Real estate agent Patti Marcotte of Spokane stocks up on detergent at a
Costco in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, and doesn't care who knows it.

"Yes, I am a smuggler," she said. "I'm taking my chances because dirty
dishes I cannot live with."

(In truth, the ban applies to the sale of phosphate detergent ? not its use
or possession ? so Marcotte is not in any legal trouble.)

Marcotte said she tried every green brand in her dishwasher and found
none would remove grease and pieces of food. Everybody she knows
buys dishwasher detergent in Idaho, she said.

Supporters of the ban acknowledge it is not very popular.

"I'm not hearing a lot of positive feedback," conceded Shannon Brattebo
of the Washington Lake Protection Association, a prime mover of the
ban. "I think people are driving to Idaho."

Steve Marcy, manager of the Costco in Coeur d'Alene, about 10 miles
east of the Washington state line, estimated that sales of dishwasher
detergent in his store have increased 10 percent. He knows where the
customers are coming from.

"I'll joke with them and ask if they are from Spokane," Marcy said. "They
say, `Oh yeah.'"

Shoppers can still buy phosphate detergents in Washington state by
venturing outside Spokane County, but Idaho is more convenient to
many Spokane residents.

Phosphates ? the main cleaning agent in many detergents and household
cleaners ? break down grease and remove stains. However, the
chemicals are difficult to remove in wastewater treatment plants and
often wind up in rivers and lakes, where they promote the growth of
algae. And algae gobble up oxygen in the water that fish need to survive.

While traditional detergents are up to 9 percent phosphate, those sold in
Spokane County can contain no more than 0.5 percent.

The Washington Lake Protection Association has launched a campaign to
encourage people to give the environmentally friendly brands a fair
chance. The group suggests consumers experiment with different brands
or install water softeners to help the green detergents work better.

"Clean lakes and clean dishes do not have to be mutually exclusive," said
association president-elect Jacob McCann.

Phosphates have been banned in laundry detergent nationally since 1993.
Washington was the first state where the Legislature passed a similar ban
against dishwasher detergents, in 2006. The ban is being phased in,
starting with Spokane County.

"It's nice to be on the cutting edge," Spokane resident Ken Beck, an
opponent of the ban, said sarcastically.

Among other states that have banned or are banning phosphates in
dishwasher detergent are Maryland, Pennsylvania, Virginia, Michigan,
Vermont, Minnesota, Illinois, Massachusetts and New York. A bill on
Capitol Hill would impose a nationwide ban.

The Soap and Detergent Association, which represents manufacturers,
initially fought the bans. But as the movement gained strength across the
country, the association asked legislatures to delay bans until July 2010
to allow for a uniform rollout of products.

The industry has been working to develop better low-phosphate
detergents, said Dennis Griesing, vice president of the manufacturers
group.

"This is an irrevocable, nationwide commitment on the industry's part," he
said.

For his part, Beck has taken to washing his dishes on his machine's
pots-and-pans cycle, which takes longer and uses five gallons more
water. Beck wonders if that isn't as tough on the environment as
phosphates.

"How much is this really costing us?" Beck said. "Aren't we transferring
the environmental consequences to something else?"

Hardcore environmentalism has breached the realm of common sense and encroached into the absurd.

Sayin.

Costco's Kirkland brand of dishwashing soap is phosphate free (or at least the version of it I buy is) and it does a decent job. It doesn't get the dried on cocoa off, though. There are other things we need to "prewash" before putting in the dishwasher, too.

I come from a family that gets the chunks off the dishes prior to washing them in a dish washer. No problems with the "Green suds" here. Oh, and I have no greasy residue on my dishes either.


I might be as big as Spokane, but I am not Spokane.



Oh yeah, well you have scumbag polititians in yer town so nenur, nenur, nenur!!!

Walkinghairball wrote: Oh yeah, well you have scumbag polititians in yer town so nenur, nenur, nenur!!!

Wurd.

But hey, you're preachin' to the choir, Bro.

I live in the 'burbs. We don't like 'em very much either.

Hopefully, things will "change" in 2010 if the country
votes the bums out.

awip2062 wrote:I think much of what we who are opposed to the events we see playing out in our government would rather see happening has been mentioned already.

Oh yes, quite....................Quite.

But none have been comprehensive ideas and/or plans to solve the problems. Everybody is against everything, but nobody can say, "and this is the right, more efficient, or less costly way to do it." It's all, "Throw the bums out", and "Y'all suck for being concerned about the planet," and "You'll have to pry the Cheney from my cold, dead hands."

I'm just as open-eared as I can be. I'd love to hear some alternatives that make sense to me. I just haven't heard anything better than what is in motion presently. Not from us, not from my local government, not from the creme de la creme of our political superheroes.

But we have.

We have said things like "let the businesses fail" and "don't give bailouts" and "get government out of business".

"Socialism we can believe in"

Did I just say that?

Somebody hit me with a blunt object...

awip2062 wrote:But we have.

We have said things like "let the businesses fail" and "don't give bailouts" and "get government out of business".

Yep, those things were said, but none of them attempt to solve any of the issues. The 'bail-outs' and the 'government in business' are methods of solving issues by the current administration. To say, "Don't do those things" does not provide comprehensive ideas, alternatives, suggestions and/or plans to solve the problems, and without those, the current methods will, logically, remain.

Tea-protesting or not.

I disagree on two points.

First, bailouts aren't just this administration's way of dealing with the problem, as the previous administration did the same.

Second, not giving bailouts and getting government out of business, letting business fail....all those things are doing something by not doing something. If we let the businesses that are failing fail, if we get governement out of business and, for example, stop requiring banks to loan money to people who cannot afford it, if we don't take from the people and give to the corporation, we will see great change! That which we have come to know as status quo will be gone. Our entire economy ansocial structure will change. It'll hurt like hell and I don't doubt that my family would have some very tough times ahead, as would a huge number of families. BUT we would come through it and end up with a stronger nation with a stronger economy, one very likely not based on credit (aka debt).

Dudes, t's right on the money.

We need to stop curing athletes foot with more fungus!

Know what I mean Vern?




Sayin'

For every company that falls another will rise to fill the void, better managed, that is they joy of free market.