By-Tor.com

I know I posted this on the last page, but the data simply shows no sign of us jumping up 6?...

Thing is, there are so many charts. Some from life-long scientists/geologists, etc. and some by, well, who knows. I want to be optimistic, I really do. I want to go on progressing and getting better every year, consuming and growing my Brewer's Goiter, but I want the children of the future to have someplace as great as I have had to live.

Here's a question for you then. In that very same IPCC report they state that cattle pose an even bigger problem than vehicle exhaust. With that in mind, are you willing to stop eating beef for the rest of your life and encourage the erst of the world to do so as well?

Ok, climate change!

Biodiversity has already been effected world wide with extinctions. Many people don't realize, don't care or don't pay attention. Many plants and animals are already gone. I will be not very nice and say; if anyone doesn't believe that we are to blame, is just a plain wrong. There are species that have become extinct from OUR overharvesting and many are threaten as we speak. Red Knots are in trouble as are many other shore birds because humans over harvested horse shoe crabs just to name one.

Elf should think about what he said here ...

Apparently this line of thinking isn't very persuasive or pretty much everybody on this forum would be striving to be the best Christians they could be.

That's not very nice in and of itself, like a slap in the face. I tend not to believe all that Christian line of thinking ther is or was a God etc. but I am a very good person and try to be kind to everyone I know and meet.
SO TAKE IT BACK!

An element I must contend
sometimes it's my enemy
sometimes it's my friend
not sure when it started
or when it will end
I just keep moving on
before I find, it's come and gone
the older I grow the faster it goes
hard to regulate, hard to find
that perhaps I have some control
of this element TIME!

Just give Me money and I'll be happy.

If it's a slap in the face it would only be to Pascal who thought he had come up with the ultimate arguement in favor of living a Christian lifestyle. I don't know of anyone who has converted to Christianity because of it.

By the same token, I'm not converting to the idea of a bunch of new taxes simply because we can't risk NOT creating a bunch of new taxes.

ElfDude wrote:Here's a question for you then. In that very same IPCC report they state that cattle pose an even bigger problem than vehicle exhaust. With that in mind, are you willing to stop eating beef for the rest of your life and encourage the erst of the world to do so as well?

Well, you see what happens when someone (even someone as famous and supposedly looked up to like a former vice prez and prez candidate) tries to encourage the rest of the world to change their life so as to actually preserve life. I am certainly ready and willing to change my habits, yes, even cheeseburgers, if it will aid in the reversal/slowing of a planet-wide calamity. But as you kinda said earlier, not a very persuasive argument. I don't want to just shrug, though. I want to do something, and I am and will. Maybe my good kharma will make a boat appear as my city floods

BTW, Me; I don't want to speak for Elf, but I think he was speaking metaphorically earlier. I'm sure he wasn't saying that we all suck for not being good or perfect Christians. He's just not like that. I love your passion, though. Concentrated and directed toward these horrifying issues, it's passion like this that may pull us back from the brink.

Big Blue Owl wrote: I'm sure he wasn't saying that we all suck for not being good or perfect Christians.

Thanks BBO. Of course I wasn't saying that.

My only point was that the Pascalesque argument doesn't work on me for the same reason it doesn't work on you (you heathens, you... wink wink grin grin nudge nudge ). It's not insulting. At least I didn't mean it to be. My apologies if it came out that way.

I did take it as a negative comment, nevertheless apology excepted. By the way I see nothing wrong with the church as long as it's a social atmospere of peace and love which most christians hold too. Unfortunately thru out history this is not the case when it comes to religion. I imagine if you get any kind of large controlling groups together that hold to a principal and or belief it would cause the same thing and I am not talking about religion here. Like slavery or something along those lines or beliefs. It's not like I don't like people of God, I just find it's not for me.

Thanks BBO!
We try and do what we can. My wife an I car pool and we volunteer to plant trees every year and some other things it's not enough, yet every little bit helps. The Gov. needs to step in and change things drastically. We do have the technology and it's a shame they don't impilment that now! Unfortunately they are too late, it's going to get worst before it gets better, hopefully not for future though? I think we all help and are concerned but we all have to make a living at the same time.

I know sometimes I say stuff that gets people mad and I apologize for that. I am trying to watch the way I write, especially when I am hot under the collar myself.

Peace

ElfDude wrote:Here's a question for you then. In that very same IPCC report they state that cattle pose an even bigger problem than vehicle exhaust. With that in mind, are you willing to stop eating beef for the rest of your life and encourage the rest of the world to do so as well?

Cattle pose an equal problem as vehicle exhaust along with other types of factory farming operations. (Hogs, Poultry) If one really wants to know the truth about the state of the food we eat and how it affects global warming, read "Harvest for Hope" by Dr. Jane Goodall, yes, the primatologist or chimp lady. A very shocking and eye opening read about the sin of the state of our food chain.
Harvest for Hope
Global warming cannot be attributed to one reason, just as a Dr. cannot diagnose an ailment with only one exact cause. The earth is ailing and man's pressures are contributing, but that is not the only reason. The sun, which is a star if we remember,does have different phases of solar heat emissions which contribute to warming and then there is the possibility of changes in alignment of the polar axis which re-arranges the equator thus making previously moderate climates,hotter. Extreme warming and cooling of the oceans also affects the atmosphere ie: El Nino and La Nina, the phenomenon of drastic ocean temperature changes affect the weather globally. All of these things combined together to warm the earth. We really must listen to the scientists and not the politicians and look at the BIG picture. Much improvement is needed in many areas of man's destructive habits but they can't be the singular reason for climate change.

Me wrote:The Gov. needs to step in and change things drastically.

This is what scares me the most. I haven't seen this in "Me", but I know some people who will blindly follow whatever the govt throws at them. Yes, the govt has come up with some good things that has benefited our society, but I think that same society does itself a great (and deadly) disservice when it comes to believe it is always the govt's job, and the govt will have the right answer when nobody else does.

I think it would be good to find ways to stimulate the private sector to make enviro-freak profitable. THEN we would see something really ged done. There is nothing wrong with profit, and when it would be benificial for both the pocket and the enviro, it's a win-win.

Now THIS is something worthwhile! Finally, a website devoted to both sides of this debate. http://climatedebatedaily.com/

There are tons of websites dedicated to one side or the other. The problem with those is, the sites that want to prove it's natural are decried as being funded by big oil while the sites that want to prove it's man-made are declared to be run by socialists who want to destroy the US economy.

I plan on book marking this site and giving it a lot of attention.

Analysis of ice core data... some of it dating back to 500,000 years ago. Most of it I've never seen. Kind of puts things in perspective.

The scientist's accent and sense of humor don't hurt either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOLkze-9GcI

When I said the Gov. needs to step in, I should of been clearer, much clearer. I don't want to be taxed anymore than I already am! What I would like to see is incentives for using solar, wind power and huge incentives to the auto manufacturers to come up with an alternate fuel.

Scientists have done core samples in the ice at the south pole going back 31/2 billion years and it shows that carbon is the highest now, than it has ever been in all that time. I didn't realize that the ice field at the south pole is as big as the US and Mexico combined and is up to 2 miles deep that's almost inconcivable

Me wrote:Scientists have done core samples in the ice at the south pole going back 31/2 billion years and it shows that carbon is the highest now, than it has ever been in all that time.

Source?

Not suggesting that you're lying. I just want to read the article or paper too.

I'm also questioning the source because I have seen presented evidence to the contrary.

In an interview with Sallie Baliunas, Ph.D., Harvard Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, I saw the following...

Q: WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME ON THE EARTH WHEN THERE WAS THIS MUCH CARBON DIOXIDE OR MORE AND WHAT WERE THE TEMPERATURES THEN?

A: I like to look at the Ordovician 440 million years ago when the CO2 levels were TEN TIMES higher than they are today. But the Earth was in a very glacial state, a very strong ice age. So, that says we just don't know what's going on.

Q: DURING THIS PERIOD IN THE ORDOVICIAN, THERE WAS 10 TIMES THE AMOUNT OF CO2 NOW, BUT IT WAS A GLACIAL PLANET.

A: Right, such an ice age that it is called an "ice ball" by some people ? very severe glaciation.

Q: WOULD THAT SUGGEST TO YOU AND OTHER ASTROPHYSICISTS THAT IT HAD TO HAVE BEEN LINKED DIRECTLY TO SOMETHING GOING ON IN THE SUN?

A: The Ordovician ?could it have been caused by the Sun? I have struggled with this. We have no information about the Sun on those long periods. I could not even tell you with any certainty ? I might be able to tell you what the Sun does on timescales of thousands of years. But then going back a million, and this was 440 million years ago, half a billion years ? we have very little information. We have nothing.