Happy 4th of July!!

Sir Myghin · Post by **Sir Myghin** » Mon Jul 05, 2004 8:20 pm

kazzman wrote:
by-tor wrote:
Blame it on the French, that's what I do.
That always works. Too bad they owe us badly for WWI and WWII, yet they still refuse to help us in a time of war. Of course though we're better off without them due to the fact that they haven't won a war by themselves in over 200 years...

Anyway, a late Happy Independence Day from me.

that is a rather narrow philosophy, people owe you for the good you do? that is pure foolishness to say, gratitude should be repayment enough for ones deeds.

awip2062 · Post by **awip2062** » Mon Jul 05, 2004 8:23 pm

Gratitude? From the French for saving them? Don't see a lick!

Sir Myghin · Post by **Sir Myghin** » Mon Jul 05, 2004 8:25 pm

no but i am sure the french are gracious for being saves, have you ever seen the flowers people from holland give canada!

awip2062 · Post by **awip2062** » Mon Jul 05, 2004 8:29 pm

Okay, so Holland is thankful to Canada. And they should be for all you did for them. But that does not mean France is to the US.

Sir Myghin · Post by **Sir Myghin** » Mon Jul 05, 2004 8:43 pm

they gave you a big statue before lol hehehe

wcp · Post by **wcp** » Mon Jul 05, 2004 9:18 pm

good old Marie-Anne

*Lifesonite · Post by *Lifesonite » Mon Jul 05, 2004 10:34 pm

Like anyone is going to kiss anyones ass for what your ancestors did for their ancestors

happysmilies007 · Post by **happysmilies007** » Mon Jul 05, 2004 10:54 pm

there you go!! i love the way awip put it, personally!! i think discrimination would be the affirmative action..it's just reverse racism. when i go to college, i'd hate to think of myself losing an acceptance because i'm a straight-a white student and they're a b's & c's minority student..especially if i've worked hard to get where i am, and i will work hard toward my future, i can guarantee ya that!!

anyways, i'd better quit visiting this place, i get pretty fired up about racism and discrimination!!

carolynn

Slaine mac Roth · Post by **Slaine mac Roth** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 4:46 am

happysmilies007 wrote:there you go!! i love the way awip put it, personally!! i think discrimination would be the affirmative action..it's just reverse racism. when i go to college, i'd hate to think of myself losing an acceptance because i'm a straight-a white student and they're a b's & c's minority student..especially if i've worked hard to get where i am, and i will work hard toward my future, i can guarantee ya that!!

anyways, i'd better quit visiting this place, i get pretty fired up about racism and discrimination!!

carolynn

If American colleges are anything like British Universities, it is very likely. While I was at university there was a notice in the Students Union bar making it very clear that anyone displaying 'racist, sexist or homophobic behaviour' would be in big trouble. Although it was never stated outright, it was clear from the union reps' attitude that I, as a hetero-sexual white male, was not protected by this policy. In short, anyone could say anything they liked to me because of what I am and in no way would it be classed as discrimination. In fact, their attitude suggested that I deserved anything I got because of what I was.

When are these people going to realise that this sort of attitude, far from stamping out discrimination, fosters resentment and causes more trouble than it solves by alienating a large section of society that, otherwise, would be sympathetic.

Ogg · Post by **Ogg** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 6:33 am

Lol, it's pretty funny pre-empting the reaction to my deliberate ''You stole my land, destroyed my people...'...' provocation. This is why I love this place, intelligence, diversity, rythm... but with a disconcerting air of predictablity that does not belong here in By-Tor.

I confess myself disappointed with the multitude of so-called 'Nationalists' present. How Slaine (a fellow englishman) can confess to 'pride in my country' is laughable. I'm also english and cannot fathom what pride one could honestly find?
Even more frightening are my thoughts on awips Native American viewpoint. Incredulous that generations of conditioning can actually convince the oppressed that it was 'all for the best' in then end...

I believe you can have pride in an individual but not for the terrible act of having fought for one's country, which seems to be the basic definition of 'pride' for many a person. Lets face it, the majority of right minded people would not dream of bearing arms unless provoked.

Yes, pride in an individual, pride in yourself. Pride where one's country is concerned, in this day and age? Ridiculous.

awip2062 · Post by **awip2062** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 8:30 am

I totally agree that Affirmative Action is discrimination. It is, plain and simple.

Not only is it discrimination, it is demeaning to the minority. I got good grades and worked hard in school, but due to affirmative action, many could have believed that I was gedding through school (and even into the schools) because of my heritage and not on my merits.

As far as anti-discrimination policies go, you are right, Slaine. You, the white male are not protected. I am finding that to be true also for the Christian in this nation. It has been ruled constitutional for a school in California to REQUIRE history students to say Muslim prayers (for the sake of history), but the cross in the Los Angeles city seal is being removed, even though the city was founded by Catholics and therefore the cross is historical in nature. No one is being forced to worship G-d in Los Angeles by having that cross there, but it must go.

When are these people going to realise that this sort of attitude, far from stamping out discrimination, fosters resentment and causes more trouble than it solves by alienating a large section of society that, otherwise, would be sympathetic

Unfortunately, it is going to take a heart change, a worldview shift on the part of the people, and that is hard to effect, especially when the attitude you are talking about is being disseminated through the schools. We need our kids growing up knowing that ALL discrimination is evil, not just discriminating against previously oppressed peoples. Parents have to do the job and find a way to counter what the teachers are giving them on this.

Ogg, I am not convinced that it was all for the best, but I am a realist. I can either focus on the negatives or I can be thankful for the good that did come. Which would you rather have me do: continually look around at your "race" and be angry because you people walked onto my family farm with guns and forced us out of our homes, our fields, away from our nation with a two-house congress and all the same modern conviences of the times that you people had, making us walk thousands of miles and causing at least 1/4 of our people to die along the way to a place where we were given substandard housing and food that was either rancid or infested with insects --or-- realize that there were bad and evil men then as there are now and look at the fact that I am alive, my people have withstood the attempts of your people in the past to destroy us, and we can now take what advancements you have made and use it them our good? The first attitude leaves me bitter, angry, and keeps me oppressed. The second attitude allows me to soar.

BTW...the president who caused my family to be forced from our farm and to walk the Trail of Tears was Andrew Jackson, and I always have difficulty looking at a $20 bill with his face on it. But I can't hold his sins against the current whites of the world.

I suppose pride in a nation can come from different views as well. I do not take pride in much my nation has done (Japanese internment for exapmle). I do take pride in other things it has (helping put an end to Hilter's reign of terror). But, all in all, I am proud of my country. She has done many wonderful things. I hope she does more.

I do not see fighting for one's country as a terrible act. How is is disgraceful to protect one's family? Or to help oppressed people's to become free?

I also disagree that the majority of right-minded people would not dream of bearing arms unless provoked. We NEED a strong military to protect us, which means we need those who daily bear arms. Bearing arms is not shooting, by the way, it is having and knowing how to use those arms, and then using them when appropriate. So, I am very proud of having warriors in every generation of my family from before this nation was conceived. And I am proud of those veterans who served my country who I am not related to. Hey, I am proud of DutchRush, who is a veteran of his nation! He did his part to protect his land. Well done, lief!

by-tor · Post by **by-tor** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 11:35 am

awip2062 wrote:my people have withstood the attempts of your people in the past to destroy us

Yes, yes. We really must try harder next time.

Slaine mac Roth · Post by **Slaine mac Roth** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 11:41 am

Ogg wrote: How Slaine (a fellow englishman) can confess to 'pride in my country' is laughable. I'm also english and cannot fathom what pride one could honestly find?

Shakespeare, Milton, Tolkien, Newton, Stephen Hawking, Scott (Walter and Robert), Thomas Tallis, Benjamin Britten, Gustav Holst, Kenneth Grahame, Roald Dahl, William Wilberforce, Winston Churchill, William Pitt, Christopher Wrenn, Constable, Coleridge, Wordsworth, Shelly, Byron, Thomas Hobbes, and many, many more.

Do not lump in 'national pride' with patriotism and the rantings of a vocl minority. Perhaps I should have said pride in my heritage. True, there are episodes in English history that are not a matter for pride, but that goes for any nation. However, the English have also contributed a great deal in many areas - it is those people that make me proud to share a heritage with.

And the ones I'm not proud to share with - Tony Blair is high on the list.

by-tor · Post by **by-tor** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 2:51 pm

Slaine mac Roth wrote:Shakespeare, Milton, Tolkien, Newton, Stephen Hawking, Scott (Walter and Robert), Thomas Tallis, Benjamin Britten, Gustav Holst, Kenneth Grahame, Roald Dahl, William Wilberforce, Winston Churchill, William Pitt, Christopher Wrenn, Constable, Coleridge, Wordsworth, Shelly, Byron, Thomas Hobbes, and many, many more.

You forgot Robert the Bruce.

Sir Myghin · Post by **Sir Myghin** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 2:59 pm

he was a good scot he was