What Ameircans believe about Iraq, 9/11, etc.

awip2062 · Post by **awip2062** » Sat May 27, 2006 11:33 am

ElfDude wrote: 5 ? And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Let's look at this in context. What is Jesus talking about? He is addressing those people who want to be seein praying so that people will think highly of them. Not people who are praying in a corporate setting. Jesus was in and out of the synagogues and temple where people prayed as a group and the only time we see Him getting mad was when He overturned the tables of the money changers.

Now if those men are praying just so that people will see them pray, then G-d isn't going to care for their prayers. If those men are praying together as a corporate worship and their hearts are really worshipping G-d, then G-d will love their prayers.

Context is everything.

Devil's Advocate · Post by **Devil's Advocate** » Sat May 27, 2006 12:45 pm

I think you're overlooking the second of those two verses.

ElfDude · Post by **ElfDude** » Sat May 27, 2006 1:49 pm

Let's look at more context then.

Luke 18: 1
1 AND he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;

Luke 21: 36
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The Savior wasn't telling us that the only time we should pray was when we could keep it a secret, since we are also instructed to pray always.

It had become a popular thing to do at the time, especially among the upper classes, to try to show off how devout and righteous they were. People really would make a big show out of praying on the street so that others would see them and say to themselves, "Oh, he certainly must be a good man, look at him pray!"

The same thing went on with fasting. People would try to make themselves look as miserable as they could when they were fasting so that everyone would know what they were up to and think highly of them. Also from Matthew 6:

16 ? Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face;

18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall breward thee openly.

There's nothing hypocritical about a group of soldiers praying together for their safety and deliverance. It wasn't being done to show off.

awip2062 · Post by **awip2062** » Sat May 27, 2006 3:20 pm

The thing is, you can't take a verse here and there and say, "There! That is what the Bible says on this subject." You have to look at the Bible as a whole and see the context they are in, the style of writing being used at the time, any literary devices employed.

schuette · Post by **schuette** » Sat May 27, 2006 4:49 pm

I mean no offense here...and I haven't read any of the bible...but when I hear everyday quotes such as 'turn the other cheek'.....'an eye for an eye'....which one is it...?
It sounds to me like its full of contradictions....well not full that's a figure of speech but there are contradictions

ElfDude · Post by **ElfDude** » Sat May 27, 2006 5:48 pm

That's not an offensive question at all.

If you ever saw the movie "The Ten Commandments" or maybe "The Prince of Egypt" you saw the story of Moses leading the children of Israel out of slavery.

After having been slaves for so many generations (400 years) the Jews were not what you'd call either an humble or enlightened people, but were rather childish in nature. They were not ready for the fullness of the gospel so they were given what was called "the law of Moses". It was a very strict, point by point, action and consequence kind of law. If you do x, your punishment will be y, etc. If you take out your neighbor's eye, they your eye shall be taken in retribution. That sort of thing. And, of course, it contained the blood sacrifices of the firstborn of the flocks, the rituals of the passover, etc.

It's like the relationship between most children and parents. Little kids need a lot of strict, guidelines. "No! Don't touch that! Stay out of there!" As they grow older and gain wisdom they are given more freedoms, and usually greater responsibilities as well.

The prophets of the Old Testament prophecied of the coming of a Messiah. And when He did come, He fulfilled the law of Moses and brought forth a higher law. That's why in the New Testament you see the Savior saying things like "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you that ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek turn to him the other also" or "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath already committed adultery in his heart." He was fulfilling prophecy and showing us a better way of living. Keep your thoughts pure. Forgive. Love each other and show respect.

And, of course, the law of blood sacrifice had been a similitude for His ultimate sacrifice. Once the Savior gave His life and ressurected, the practice of sacrificing the firstborn of the flock ceased.

Devil's Advocate · Post by **Devil's Advocate** » Sat May 27, 2006 6:03 pm

ElfDude wrote:Let's look at more context then.

Luke ...

Luke? How is that context? It's a different book!

The Savior wasn't telling us that the only time we should pray was when we could keep it a secret, since we are also instructed to pray always.

Well then... since the Bible says both to pray only in your closet, and to pray always, I guess that means you gotta stay in your closets.....

There's nothing hypocritical about a group of soldiers praying together for their safety and deliverance. It wasn't being done to show off.

You can say that, but none of us know anything about those soldiers other than what we can glean from the photo. We do not have any information whatsoever on why they were praying.

ElfDude · Post by **ElfDude** » Sat May 27, 2006 6:15 pm

Oh, I get it. It's the argument sketch. Just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes...

ElfDude · Post by **ElfDude** » Sat May 27, 2006 6:33 pm

Devil's Advocate wrote:
ElfDude wrote:Let's look at more context then.

Luke ...
Luke? How is that context? It's a different book!
The Savior wasn't telling us that the only time we should pray was when we could keep it a secret, since we are also instructed to pray always.
Well then... since the Bible says both to pray only in your closet, and to pray always, I guess that means you gotta stay in your closets.....
There's nothing hypocritical about a group of soldiers praying together for their safety and deliverance. It wasn't being done to show off.
You can say that, but none of us know anything about those soldiers other than what we can glean from the photo. We do not have any information whatsoever on why they were praying.

Okay, I'll respond.

Point one: The passages from the books of Matthew and Luke were both quoting the same man performing his ministry. If I'd tried quoting Buddah and calling it context then we'd have a problem.

Point two: I know it was a joke, but show me where the bible says "only in your closet".

And on your last point, you're right. They were probably praying that the bird flu would wipe out 90% of the planet's population. After all, what else would soldiers have to pray for? Maybe the vets on the board could help me. You guys do pray for the bird flu to strike, right?

schuette · Post by **schuette** » Sat May 27, 2006 6:45 pm

so if someone raped and killed one of your daughters you could really live with ..."whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek turn to him the other also"

or would you revert to saying that you were like the jews and believed in an eye for an eye....

Could you really forgive that person...or is it only who can God forgive him..?

If God does forgive him would that not make you furious?

ElfDude · Post by **ElfDude** » Sat May 27, 2006 6:50 pm

schuette wrote:so if someone raped and killed one of your daughters you could really live with ..."whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek turn to him the other also"

or would you revert to saying that you were like the jews and believed in an eye for an eye....

Could you really forgive that person...or is it only who can God forgive him..?

If God does forgive him would that not make you furious?

There's a difference between forgiving someone and not holding them accountable for their actions.

schuette · Post by **schuette** » Sat May 27, 2006 6:55 pm

In the bible who would hold them accountable for their actions?
God or man..?

ElfDude · Post by **ElfDude** » Sat May 27, 2006 7:00 pm

For a crime like that, both. What I mean is, we're subject to the law. The guy should be punished according to the law. But it's not my place to kill him (though that would be a struggle, let me tell you).

Then, on his judgement day, he'll face the Savior. And his reward will be just.

schuette · Post by **schuette** » Sat May 27, 2006 7:09 pm

But if he went to confession and asked for forgiveness....would he not then be able to enter 'heaven'..?

awip2062 · Post by **awip2062** » Sat May 27, 2006 7:09 pm

Schu, you have some good questions. Let me share with you what I see.

The "eye for an eye" passage is part of the civil law given to the nation of Israel, as Elf mentioned. It was common back then to give out a punishment that far exceeded the crime. By saying an eye for an eye, Moses was teaching that they punishment should fit the crime. Oh, and the specific laws given were given to the nation of Israel, not the whole world, although the concepts behind the laws, the "spirit" so to speak, would fit all of the world well.

Then in the NT, Jesus was speaking to individuals, not the nation as a whole. And, He was speaking to those who were following Him also, further narrowing the field. He was laying down a principle that His people should obey, not a civil law.

He didn't abolish all legal punishments for crimes. But, our focus is not to be punishing those who do wrong against us, rather it is to be loving them.