What Ameircans believe about Iraq, 9/11, etc.
Moderator: Priests of Syrinx
The only way any confession would be valid in the eyes of G-d is if he really means it, and his life changed. If he says he is sorry and then goes back to that behaviour, that would not be real repentance. The only way to get to heaven is a heart that is clean, and you can't have one just by saying words, you have to mean it.
Onward and Upward!
As to the issue of context, DA...
You have to take the Bible in the context of the whole Bible. Luke and Matthew cover many of the same occasions and teachings of Christ. So do John and Mark. Writings of Paul (most of the rest of the New Testament) cover His teachings as well. You can't take just one verse and live your life based on that.
It would be like reading only parts of 2112 and thinking you know what Neil was saying. It just doesn't work.
You have to take the Bible in the context of the whole Bible. Luke and Matthew cover many of the same occasions and teachings of Christ. So do John and Mark. Writings of Paul (most of the rest of the New Testament) cover His teachings as well. You can't take just one verse and live your life based on that.
It would be like reading only parts of 2112 and thinking you know what Neil was saying. It just doesn't work.
Onward and Upward!
Those of us who have been in the military and those of us who have kin who have been there and have learnt from them what life was like in the military can make an educated guess. Know how many of my kin who were in the American military were told to pray? None.Devil's Advocate wrote: You can say that, but none of us know anything about those soldiers other than what we can glean from the photo. We do not have any information whatsoever on why they were praying.
Ultimately though, it is G-d who will decide. If those men were praying for a show, He didn't even listen. If they were praying out of faith and not just to be seen, He smiled.
Onward and Upward!
If I was to (hypothetically) find out that the rapist and killer of my child was forgiven in the eyes of God cuz he truely believed he was in the wrong.. then I would be the one who God would disregard.....I would want that person to suffer in the most attrocious ways from now until eternity...and for him to truely regret what they did is not an issue
I lost a child through the fault of no human....I'm angry....I hate to think what I would be like if I had a person to blame..
I lost a child through the fault of no human....I'm angry....I hate to think what I would be like if I had a person to blame..
One thing in all this is...when we hold that anger and that hate for another person, what it is really doing is not hurting that person, but we are the one being hurt. We are the one obsessed, we are the one whose emotions are messed up. Finding a way to let that go, well, that frees us! If we let G-d and the government deal with the one who has hurt us, we are free to spend our time, mental energy, and emotional energy on living.
Onward and Upward!
but if they really regret their actions then God will forgive them!
.....and we might stop hating the person who killed your child but you never stop hurting...
when you lose a child your life changes...you will never be the same again..it's so hard to describe what you actually feel..
It's so easy to say 'dont hate'....'dont be obsessed'...'let go'....'that you are free to spend your time, mental energy, and emotional energy on living'
somehow you only hear that from people who have not experienced the most painfulest thing you can ever experience...
To live a life a life of crying...to live a life of missing someone so much the pain is unbearable....to llive a life of always wondering...what would they look like, what would they be doing...
I lost Cameron in 1998....nearly 8 year ago and the pain is no less....in 2038 the pain will be the same..this I know.....I never lost Cameron cause of a person.....but if I did and cause that person truely regrets what they did they get's God's forgiveness!!......and meanwhile I've to let it all go....free myself up.....
easier said then done t....I cant free myself knowing no one person killed Cameron....if someone did murder Cameron...my anger would be eternal
if God is good and kind then why did he take an innocent 3 year old and not someone who could kill your child??
.....and we might stop hating the person who killed your child but you never stop hurting...
when you lose a child your life changes...you will never be the same again..it's so hard to describe what you actually feel..
It's so easy to say 'dont hate'....'dont be obsessed'...'let go'....'that you are free to spend your time, mental energy, and emotional energy on living'
somehow you only hear that from people who have not experienced the most painfulest thing you can ever experience...
To live a life a life of crying...to live a life of missing someone so much the pain is unbearable....to llive a life of always wondering...what would they look like, what would they be doing...
I lost Cameron in 1998....nearly 8 year ago and the pain is no less....in 2038 the pain will be the same..this I know.....I never lost Cameron cause of a person.....but if I did and cause that person truely regrets what they did they get's God's forgiveness!!......and meanwhile I've to let it all go....free myself up.....
easier said then done t....I cant free myself knowing no one person killed Cameron....if someone did murder Cameron...my anger would be eternal
if God is good and kind then why did he take an innocent 3 year old and not someone who could kill your child??
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ElfDude
- Posts: 11085
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 1:19 pm
- Location: In the shadows of the everlasting hills
- Contact:
Hey Heather,
Pretty heavy stuff. I know that nothing I can say will make you feel any better. Words don't make people feel better. But some of that stuff should probably be responded to.
I've had lots of deaths in my family, but none of them were my children. We all have deaths in our families. We all die. Nobody escapes that. But it goes so contrary to what seems to be the natural order of things to lose a child. It's a horrible pain. One I can't fully comprehend.
I'm not saying any of that out of smugness. None of us get through this life without painful trials. More on that in a sec.
Okay, I haven't lost a child but in your scenario of someone raping your child, how do you get over hating them? I know you've had a cheating spouse like I have. I don't know what you felt for him before it happened. But when it happened to me I was so deeply, passionately, hopelessly in love with my wife. She had her problems, but I dealt with them and just loved her more. And all of a sudden, after 15 years of marriage, she's seduced away and screwing some kid who was 4 years old on our wedding day. I know anger. I know bitterness. I know pain. I understand the idea of hurting beyond what you ever thought a human body would survive. I know lying there unable to move because the pain is so crippling, and you wonder why you're still alive, because pain like that is supposed to kill a person.
The initial fantasies were of killing that guy. But I got over that quickly enough because killing him made it too easy for him. He'd have a few moments pain and then be on the other side. No, he needed to stay here and hurt and suffer with the rest of us. I so wanted him to suffer. So the fantasies turned to beating his fat sorry butt to the ground and kicking his ribs and listening to them snap and watching the pain on his face. And maybe breaking his fingers too. And kicking his face in. Breaking his legs with a club. Just causing excruciating pain.
And this sucker was smug. I knew he was never going to repent. I knew I'd never get an apology from him. And I knew there was no law I could use against him to have him brought to justice. As far as he was concerned he was getting away with everything and was proud of it.
At first seeing my little girls' dependant, sad eyes was all that kept me from going off to find him. They needed me here, not in jail for assault. But it didn't take very long for me to realize that harboring and nurturing feelings like this would destroy me soon. And it sure wouldn't help my daughters to be raised by a bitter, angry, twisted old man.
I'd heard a couple of psychological techniques for dealing with hurt, but they really weren't helping. One day while chatting with a friend about the anger I had for this guy she really surprised me by asking, "Matt, have you tried praying for him?" Pray FOR this scumbag? Pray for my enemy? Well, no, I hadn't. But I would. And I did. And it only took about a week to get over the need to inflict pain upon him. It probably took a couple of years before I got over thinking that if I suddenly met him I'd probably haul off and punch him in the face just once before offering him a hand up.
Now I've learned it's possible. The hatred has turned to pity. I've forgiven him. But what does that mean exactly? Would I pal around with him? No. Would I let my kids anywhere near him? No. Do I think pleasant thoughts about him and wish him well? No. It means I've put it in the hands of my Heavenly Father, who knows everything and is infinitely just and fair. I trust Him to deal with it. And when the angry feelings pop back up, as they will, I remember a passage of scripture that defines forgiveness as simply saying, "Let the Lord judge between me and thee".
I'm working hard on forgiving the ex. I thought I'd done it, but now she's suing me. Still heaping on the pile of stuff for which I need to forgive.
But I'll get there. I'm determined to do so, and I know it's possible. And I'm determined to show my kids the example of a dad who works on keeping a positive outlook. It'll be in good contrast to their bitter, angry, always playing the victim mother.
Please don't anyone reading this think I'm sharing such a deeply personal story to boast. "I did it, why can't you?" No, that's not what I'm about. I have so many weaknesses and failings... I'd never hold myself up to any of you as any sort of a great example to follow. The only point I was trying to make was that I do know pain, and I know from personal experience that the anger that accompanies it can be beaten.
I so greived for Neil when I heard the news that his daughter had died. My faith is such that when a loved one dies... like when my mother died... I didn't need to weep at her funeral. Yeah, I missed her and all, but I could feel that she hadn't ceased to exist, she was just... just living somewhere else. I'll see her again eventually. If my wife had just died in a car crash or something, it would have been easier for me to deal with than what DID happen. But I knew Neil was agnostic. That's a hopelessness I can't imagine facing. And as I read Ghost Rider it was confirmed. He said something like, "At least if I believed in a god then I'd have someone to be angry at!" Man, my heart ached for the guy. My heart aches for you, Heather.
So, I share. If there's something that gives me hope and hapiness, I share. I don't hide it. I know there are people reading this who think I'm an idiot for actually believing any of this stuff. I know I'm setting myself up to be mocked. So be it. A friend is hurting. I'm at least familiar with that genre of hurt and I know stuff that gives me hope, I'm going to share. I know that bitterness and anger eat away at our souls like a tape worm, so I'll share.
Heather, I don't expect you to believe anything I say about scripture or God or anything. It'd be weird if you DID just believe everything that some guy on the Internet was typing. That kind of belief comes through a lot of personal effort, study, prayer, etc. I just care. There's nothing in it for me to go on like this in here. I'm nothing like one of those jerk evangelists on the TV asking you to send in a check. There's nothing in it for me. I'm just trying to share something that gives me hope. Kind of like when I bought Rush in Rio and right away after seeing it called my brother and said, "You gotta see this!" Something special comes along that moves us, we naturally want to share.
Heather, I believe with all my heart that Cameron is well. Cameron is home. Cameron is a spirit so special that he didn't need the growing experiences that come from all these earthly trials that you and I are facing. I'm not just saying that. I believe it completely. If you want to ask, "How can you really believe such a thing?", let's take it out of the thread and discuss it privately. If you want to tell me to get bent, that's fine too.
I know that in the morning I'm going to feel really weird for having posted this, but, oh well. Here goes...
Pretty heavy stuff. I know that nothing I can say will make you feel any better. Words don't make people feel better. But some of that stuff should probably be responded to.
I've had lots of deaths in my family, but none of them were my children. We all have deaths in our families. We all die. Nobody escapes that. But it goes so contrary to what seems to be the natural order of things to lose a child. It's a horrible pain. One I can't fully comprehend.
Yep, it is. And it's even easier to hate and be bitter. Isn't it always the case in life that the things that are the best for us seem the hardest to do?It's so easy to say 'dont hate'....'dont be obsessed'...'let go'....'that you are free to spend your time, mental energy, and emotional energy on living'
I'm not saying any of that out of smugness. None of us get through this life without painful trials. More on that in a sec.
I do know people who have lost children who follow guidelines like that in their lives. They exist.somehow you only hear that from people who have not experienced the most painfulest thing you can ever experience...
Okay, I haven't lost a child but in your scenario of someone raping your child, how do you get over hating them? I know you've had a cheating spouse like I have. I don't know what you felt for him before it happened. But when it happened to me I was so deeply, passionately, hopelessly in love with my wife. She had her problems, but I dealt with them and just loved her more. And all of a sudden, after 15 years of marriage, she's seduced away and screwing some kid who was 4 years old on our wedding day. I know anger. I know bitterness. I know pain. I understand the idea of hurting beyond what you ever thought a human body would survive. I know lying there unable to move because the pain is so crippling, and you wonder why you're still alive, because pain like that is supposed to kill a person.
The initial fantasies were of killing that guy. But I got over that quickly enough because killing him made it too easy for him. He'd have a few moments pain and then be on the other side. No, he needed to stay here and hurt and suffer with the rest of us. I so wanted him to suffer. So the fantasies turned to beating his fat sorry butt to the ground and kicking his ribs and listening to them snap and watching the pain on his face. And maybe breaking his fingers too. And kicking his face in. Breaking his legs with a club. Just causing excruciating pain.
And this sucker was smug. I knew he was never going to repent. I knew I'd never get an apology from him. And I knew there was no law I could use against him to have him brought to justice. As far as he was concerned he was getting away with everything and was proud of it.
At first seeing my little girls' dependant, sad eyes was all that kept me from going off to find him. They needed me here, not in jail for assault. But it didn't take very long for me to realize that harboring and nurturing feelings like this would destroy me soon. And it sure wouldn't help my daughters to be raised by a bitter, angry, twisted old man.
I'd heard a couple of psychological techniques for dealing with hurt, but they really weren't helping. One day while chatting with a friend about the anger I had for this guy she really surprised me by asking, "Matt, have you tried praying for him?" Pray FOR this scumbag? Pray for my enemy? Well, no, I hadn't. But I would. And I did. And it only took about a week to get over the need to inflict pain upon him. It probably took a couple of years before I got over thinking that if I suddenly met him I'd probably haul off and punch him in the face just once before offering him a hand up.
Now I've learned it's possible. The hatred has turned to pity. I've forgiven him. But what does that mean exactly? Would I pal around with him? No. Would I let my kids anywhere near him? No. Do I think pleasant thoughts about him and wish him well? No. It means I've put it in the hands of my Heavenly Father, who knows everything and is infinitely just and fair. I trust Him to deal with it. And when the angry feelings pop back up, as they will, I remember a passage of scripture that defines forgiveness as simply saying, "Let the Lord judge between me and thee".
I'm working hard on forgiving the ex. I thought I'd done it, but now she's suing me. Still heaping on the pile of stuff for which I need to forgive.
But I'll get there. I'm determined to do so, and I know it's possible. And I'm determined to show my kids the example of a dad who works on keeping a positive outlook. It'll be in good contrast to their bitter, angry, always playing the victim mother.
Please don't anyone reading this think I'm sharing such a deeply personal story to boast. "I did it, why can't you?" No, that's not what I'm about. I have so many weaknesses and failings... I'd never hold myself up to any of you as any sort of a great example to follow. The only point I was trying to make was that I do know pain, and I know from personal experience that the anger that accompanies it can be beaten.
I so greived for Neil when I heard the news that his daughter had died. My faith is such that when a loved one dies... like when my mother died... I didn't need to weep at her funeral. Yeah, I missed her and all, but I could feel that she hadn't ceased to exist, she was just... just living somewhere else. I'll see her again eventually. If my wife had just died in a car crash or something, it would have been easier for me to deal with than what DID happen. But I knew Neil was agnostic. That's a hopelessness I can't imagine facing. And as I read Ghost Rider it was confirmed. He said something like, "At least if I believed in a god then I'd have someone to be angry at!" Man, my heart ached for the guy. My heart aches for you, Heather.
So, I share. If there's something that gives me hope and hapiness, I share. I don't hide it. I know there are people reading this who think I'm an idiot for actually believing any of this stuff. I know I'm setting myself up to be mocked. So be it. A friend is hurting. I'm at least familiar with that genre of hurt and I know stuff that gives me hope, I'm going to share. I know that bitterness and anger eat away at our souls like a tape worm, so I'll share.
Heather, I don't expect you to believe anything I say about scripture or God or anything. It'd be weird if you DID just believe everything that some guy on the Internet was typing. That kind of belief comes through a lot of personal effort, study, prayer, etc. I just care. There's nothing in it for me to go on like this in here. I'm nothing like one of those jerk evangelists on the TV asking you to send in a check. There's nothing in it for me. I'm just trying to share something that gives me hope. Kind of like when I bought Rush in Rio and right away after seeing it called my brother and said, "You gotta see this!" Something special comes along that moves us, we naturally want to share.
Heather, I believe with all my heart that Cameron is well. Cameron is home. Cameron is a spirit so special that he didn't need the growing experiences that come from all these earthly trials that you and I are facing. I'm not just saying that. I believe it completely. If you want to ask, "How can you really believe such a thing?", let's take it out of the thread and discuss it privately. If you want to tell me to get bent, that's fine too.
I know that in the morning I'm going to feel really weird for having posted this, but, oh well. Here goes...
Aren't you the guy who hit me in the eye?
Maybe we should discuss it privately cuz if there is a God I cant understand why he would take him away from me....unless of course I was a bad person..
And thank you for sharing your story...I dont think your boastful that you managed to get rid of your hatred...I'm glad you found something that helps
And thank you for sharing your story...I dont think your boastful that you managed to get rid of your hatred...I'm glad you found something that helps
I'm going to try to explain even tho I look at things a wee bit differently...like I believe in "God" in a sense but not personifying it and calling it "God" that is done by most people to make it easier to understand and teach I guess...I believe in heaven as a transcendant astral space...basically I'm kind of a mysticschuette wrote:Maybe we should discuss it privately cuz if there is a God I cant understand why he would take him away from me....unless of course I was a bad person..
What if God (being transcendant of this world) didn't take your son away. Physically he died
but his beautiful spirit is still there...God is not of this world...the world is not perfect like God which is transcendant...the world is engeneered on destruction...and fufilling drives with physical sensations...herbavores must consume plants, carnivores must consume herbavores and then baceria eat them when they die...being a part of the physical world is a state of consciousness...when you pysically die you pass into a new conscious "place" where the world has no meaning or importance anymore like to many here the other side means nothing to them...you will see him again in the spirit world...you both will see each other in your true self...immagine how beautiful that can be! Hope this helps Schu We're all mad here!
Elf, that was really touching. And encouraging.
I read Ghost Rider with similar curiosity. I wanted to see how someone without faith in G-d would deal with that pain. I can't imagine the pain I would go through, much less what someone who doesn't have a G-d to lean on or yell at or both to help him through it would have.
I have also been able to watch my mother deal with her pain, and saw how her G-d helped her to live. She lost my brother and my sister both before I was born. She went through years of being angry at G-d. She doesn't understand. She wanted 13 children, and I am the only one she has. She still cries. She will always have that pain, but, she also has the solace that she will see them again, as Elf does of his kin.
My wish for you, Schu is that you will find peace.
I read Ghost Rider with similar curiosity. I wanted to see how someone without faith in G-d would deal with that pain. I can't imagine the pain I would go through, much less what someone who doesn't have a G-d to lean on or yell at or both to help him through it would have.
I have also been able to watch my mother deal with her pain, and saw how her G-d helped her to live. She lost my brother and my sister both before I was born. She went through years of being angry at G-d. She doesn't understand. She wanted 13 children, and I am the only one she has. She still cries. She will always have that pain, but, she also has the solace that she will see them again, as Elf does of his kin.
My wish for you, Schu is that you will find peace.
Onward and Upward!
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ElfDude
- Posts: 11085
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 1:19 pm
- Location: In the shadows of the everlasting hills
- Contact:
If I owned a restaurant, I'm not sure I'd want to advertise my opinions like that. You can't help but alienate a portion of your potential customer base by doing that.schuette wrote:no offense to anyone.......but that is one restaurant I would avoid..
Kinda like the Dixie Chicks tour that is starting to bomb. They have a right to their opinions and they have a right to express them, but there are business consequences in so doing.
Aren't you the guy who hit me in the eye?